The Coldest Case in Laramie

Hi, can you hear me?

Yes, I — can you hear me?

Yeah, I’m just moving over to the Zoom. Yeah. Thanks so much. You must be Lauri.

I am.

Good Good to meet you. I’m obviously — and I’m obviously Kim. And that’s — oh, hi, Brandie. Good to see you.

Hi.

Hi. So I figured we should start out with you guys asking me questions about what I’m doing. And I would imagine that you would have questions.

Yes, absolutely. What are you writing about, exactly?

So what I would be interested in doing is basically trying to find out what happened with the case against Fred Lamb.

Right.

Like, just get records. Do all the sort of things that you do. And I just — I feel like that there could be something there, especially given that Fred Lamb was a cop.

Well, there is something there, I’m sure.

So what happened with Fred Lamb is — well, like, when they arrested him a few years ago, I know it’s very political and I know they had to keep things a secret from a lot of people in the police department at the time, but I did sit down with them about, I’m going to say, three or four years ago and looked at most of the case with them. Well, not most of the casebook. I was there for three hours and looked at a lot of it.

And what did you see? What did they show you?

Oh, good Lord, it’s a long story. But when we went in — so I went to Laramie. And actually, I’m really good friends with my sister’s roommate at the time, Michelle.

Oh, I would love to talk to her. Yeah.

I’d seen mentions of Shelli’s roommate, Michelle, in an old news story in the Casper paper. In the few articles I could find online, Michelle was the only person quoted who actually knew Shelli, the only friend mentioned.

I’m sure Michelle would probably talk to you too.

OK.

So actually, Michelle, I hadn’t seen her in a long time, but I had flown from my dad’s house. And Michelle picked me up, but we drove to Laramie. And she’d already talked to them, but I went there and I talked to the detective. We were in the room, and I know somebody was on the camera watching or guiding him. I could tell. But they just went over the story and they basically said, so — so his apartment was two apartments down.

Because I asked the detective, I’m like, well, why did the crime scene tape only go to the first apartment? And when he looked at the pictures, sure enough, they didn’t even go to the second or third apartment, even though there was more evidence further down.

So anyhow, yeah, they let Fred go. But there was — he did have some blood spatter on his door and he had a cut on his hand and he said, he cut his hand — I can’t remember what he told them. Knocking on the door. I can’t remember how he got that. But I know he went behind the building at one point and cut the whole phone line.

I mean, what’s it like to find out they arrest a guy two doors down?

I think Michelle was like, I knew he may have had something to do with it.

Michelle said that from the beginning.

I don’t know if she knew it was him, but she questioned.

We would sit outside. Sometimes we’d sunbathe out there because that’s what you did in the ‘80s. I know when they said it in the report, I’m like, oh my god. You’re trying to make us look like whores, aren’t you? I pretty much told him that. I’m like, that’s not how it was then. That’s not really what we were.

But they came home. But I remember, I was — I don’t even think we were sunbathing this time, but we were standing outside, and I must have been leaving. But I remember Michelle smacking me and telling me, look at those weirdos. There’s my neighbor. He’s a weirdo.

But I remember a couple weeks before their screen kept coming off their window, different screens. And somebody — they had somebody put it back on, or he offered to put it back on, and Michelle turned him down one time. But I remember their screens in the front would come off and then in the back would come off. But they never knew who it was. They weren’t too worried about it at the time.

Right. What did you think about the fact that he was a former police officer and used to be in the sheriff’s department?

Well, first I had to realize — I was like, hmm. I didn’t have a lot of feelings either way. And then I’m like, well, they’re assholes because they wouldn’t really answer any of our questions. But yeah, I was pretty naive then. I’m not nearly as naive now, or these days, I would have hounded them or called them more.

But yeah, no, they didn’t tell us they had any suspects or that they really talked to him or — that I remember. Maybe that’s why. The detective who is in charge of it now is not somebody who was originally a police officer at the time. He’s not from Laramie.

OK. So he’s — like, he’s not familiar with the case. I’m now sitting inside my bathroom because my dog’s being super loud.

Oh, OK. [LAUGHS]

Just going to move inside here.

He’s familiar with the case. He ended up with the case, and he investigated it. And he’s the one who got the warrant to arrest Fred the first time.

OK.

And then I don’t know. He’s now like the Assistant Chief of Police, but he kept the case.

So he sounds like he’s very invested in it then.

He’s very invested in it. He’s the only one that will help me with anything. Nobody else will go further. He’s the only one that tries to get them to press charges or to move forward or to do any of that. Nobody else will really help.

And what’s his name, the deputy?

The detective there, he may be the — I’m not even sure his title now. The Assistant Chief, his name is Robert Terry.

Robert Terry. OK. And how did you find out that they were going to drop the charges, at least for now, against Lamb?

I read it in the paper.

Ooh. They didn’t call you and tell you?

Oh, no. No. Any time I’d call any of the attorneys, they have — only had victims witness call me, like, twice.

I called a lot, though. I hounded the police station when he was arrested. And the first police officer that answered at the jail house, she was really rude and she was like, I don’t know what case you’re talking about. So she transferred me to another police officer, and he told me that he wasn’t allowed to discuss the case. But then it got really quiet and it was like he was whispering in the phone. And he said, you need to pursue this. Don’t stop. And then he hung up the phone.

But at one point, Peggy Trent was the prosecutor for it. And I called her a few times, and she wouldn’t answer the phone. And then I kind of got on a kick of calling — I thought in my head, I’m like, I feel like Laramie is really a bad place to try it, so I wonder if there’s something that I could do, you know, to get it transferred out of Laramie to maybe Cheyenne.

So I remember calling Cheyenne and asking them if they knew about the case and that I was her niece and how they get it transferred or whatever. And the lady that I spoke to, she said, I can’t just take the case. She said, it has to be given to us by Peggy Trent. But she was like, can I call you right back in 15 minutes? And I’m like, yeah. And I didn’t think she was going to call me back. Well, she called me back really quickly, and she was like, yeah, I just spoke to a judge, and we want it, but we can’t just take it.

So I called Peggy Trent back, and I told her, you know, Cheyenne wants it, the case. And I feel like it would be better to be — try it outside of Laramie. And she was so angry with me. She told me, how — who do you think you are, just trying to take my case away?

So I was really frustrated with her, and I would call her office every day just to ask questions. And eventually, I was sharing on my Facebook the article and saying, this is my aunt. Everybody, please share.

So it started to get around a little bit. And then Peggy Trent called my grandmother on me and told my grandma that I was jeopardizing the case and to make me stop. She called my grandma on me.

[LAUGHS]:

I’m sure Michelle will talk to you.

That’d be great.

OK.

All right. And we’ll — just stay in touch and we’ll see where this can go, OK?

OK, thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks so much.

Thank you. Bye.

I just — I feel like that there could be something there, especially given that Fred Lamb was a cop.

There is homework here. If you guys could get me, like, if you could talk to Michelle and see if she’d talk to me. And —

I’m sure Michelle will talk to you.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

All right, can you hear me now?

All right!

How did you meet Shelli?

At the restaurant, we were waitresses there. We kind of looked a little bit alike and had a lot of the same goals. We were both pretty good students and just — we just, we hit it off. She was a sweet, sweet, sweet person. We were just — it was like we were a married couple. We’re obviously two females. But I remember I bought a washer and dryer. She bought a stereo. We had milk crates for furniture. We had our stuff sitting on milk crates. And we just thought we were so cool. We just — were so poor. But we just felt like we had it all.

And she was — was she a couple of years older than you then if you were 19?

Yeah, mm-hmm.

And had you waited tables before? Or how did you end up at Foster’s?

They just were hiring. And I went down there and thought, I better find a job. It’s funny because I come from a big Spanish family, five kids. Nobody’s ever left home. And then I told my parents, I’m going to go away to college. And they’re like, yeah, sure you are. And they’re a poor family. And they couldn’t afford to put me through college. I said, well, I’m going to move there. I’m going to get a job.

And they were like, OK, good luck with that. And then come June 4th, I was — packed my bags. Well, I didn’t have bags. I didn’t have bags. I packed my boxes full of my clothes. And I said, I’m leaving tomorrow. And my brother was like, oh my god, she’s really leaving. So my dad had him drive with me and move there. And we drove into Laramie June 4th. And it snowed. And he was like, I won’t tease you if you come back home. I won’t say a word.

And I was like, no, I’m staying. So I applied for a job at Foster’s and got hired and worked there full time. Weird thing I’ll never forget, Big Pete from Big Pete’s Welding said, why did you move here? And I said, I came to go to college. He said, you’re going to get an education. But it’s not going to be at school. And I thought, what does he mean by that? Well, he wasn’t kidding. That town gave me an education.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

I remember it so well. I remember it like it was yesterday. I stayed at my boyfriend’s house. And we got in a huge fight because I wanted to go home. And I said, I want to go home. I don’t feel right. Something felt weird. And I remember, it was either 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. And he said, you can’t go home now. It’s the middle of the night. Nothing’s going to change between now and then.

And I just said, something’s wrong. I don’t feel — I cannot describe it. And I can’t tell you why. And then that morning early, I went home. And it was like 5:00 or 6:00 or something. And that’s how I saw the flames. And I saw the apartment still burning. And when I pulled up, that’s when the officer said, who are you? And I said, I live here. And then they said, where’s Shelli? And I thought, what do you mean, where’s Shelli? She’s in the house. And I was hysterical, just going crazy. I just could never forget those words. They said, do you know where Shelli is? And I was just like, dumbfounded. I said, what do you mean, do I know where she is? She’s in that house. And I just went crazy, just went nuts.

Yeah, I can’t imagine.

Yeah.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

So shortly after Shelli was killed, I met my husband who I’m divorced with and married him quickly. He was 10 years older than I was. He was a high school teacher. And I was scared out of my mind. It was a scary time. And I was just searching for comfort. And that was — he was 30. I was 20. And he was a high school teacher. And I thought, he’s not going to hurt me. Terrible, but —

And do you think that Shelli’s death — I mean, I would imagine it had everything to do with that.

Oh, guaranteed because right after — so when Shelli was killed, I was still in shock. I was so young. And I was just — I didn’t even call my parents when it happened until probably the next day. And I think one of the detectives said, we got to call your parents. And then my dad wanted me to move back home because he was scared. And I wouldn’t. And then somebody sent me — I started — I rented an apartment, a basement apartment.

Foster’s gave me like $600 because I didn’t have any clothes. All my clothes were burnt. And I didn’t even have a coat, I don’t even think. And so they gave me $600 so I could rent an apartment. And then somebody mailed me a card with $100 bill in it and said, if you’re smart, you’d leave town. So the detectives got the card. I called them right away because I was so scared.

I thought, somebody’s going to come for me next, which nobody knew that I lived — I mean, I hadn’t been there for more than maybe a week. And so I did leave. And I stayed home for a month. And then I was just — I felt like I was running away. I thought, I’ll never be able to face my fears and face what happened. And I just wanted to go back to Laramie. Yeah, but that was all just so, so surreal, that whole — somebody said to me now, they think it was probably Fred that did that, the detectives.

But back then, they didn’t know. They just kind of, I don’t know. All the things that he did to us while we were in that apartment, it was constant. And back then, it was just so — it was so strange because Laurie and I laughed — not laughed, but we were talking about how I used to work graveyards. And so one time, I woke up in the middle of the day. And there was a mouse inside my shirt on my belly. And how does that get there?

And my screens would come off of my windows all the time. And then he would say — and then I was screaming because that mouse was on my belly. And I was freaking out. And he all of a sudden was at the door and was like, what’s wrong? What’s wrong? Do you need help? I mean, how did he know that — I think he put the mouse in. I don’t know. I guess I don’t know that for sure. But I know for sure that he would take the screens off, ask me for help and then say, can I come in and help you put your screens on, or —

So your screens would come off. You obviously probably wouldn’t see him take the screens off. But he was always there saying, hey, do you need help with that?

Yes, yeah, yeah, I noticed your screens are off. Can I help you put your screens back on and stuff, so. Yeah, in hindsight now, there is — I would say I am 99.9 percent sure Fred Lamb murdered Shelli. I think, you know what my gut tells me is she smoked, he smoked. I think she went out probably when she got home because she didn’t smoke in the house. She went outside to smoke because I brought her — I went to Florida with my parents that June.

And I brought her an ashtray from Florida. And that was outside, all broken. And I think she was outside smoking. He probably came outside and probably hit on her. She told him to go pound sand. And I bet you he tried to rape her. And that’s my thought. I don’t know truthfully how that all happened. But I think she was outside smoking when he started talking to her. I think she probably didn’t give him the time of day. He just probably was drunk and lost it. I don’t know.

So the stuff about Lamb being a former cop and a former deputy, it creates some complications, I would think, with the investigation. Like, were they just like, well, that guy is good because he’s one of us.

Yes, yes, yes, yep. And nobody questioned the fact that at 5:00 AM, he’s fully dressed. And he’s not even at his house. That’s not his house. He’s at somebody else’s house. He’s a married man there — and that his truck was parked in a parking lot away, running. There’s a matchbook by his truck. Nobody questioned any of those things. Nobody did — and then lets him leave town.

What was the matchbook? I hadn’t heard about the matchbook.

There was a thumbprint, like a bloody thumbprint on a matchbook. And they found that. But they didn’t investigate him, take his prints or do anything at that time. They just had that matchbook. And there was a bloody thumbprint on it. They tested Laurie. They tested me. They took hair samples from me, from my pubic hair, from Laurie. But they didn’t test Fred.

And then they let him leave the very next day with all of his clothes and all of his boots and everything that was there. I just knew that they weren’t looking in the right direction. And they didn’t have a frickin’ clue who did that because if they’re sitting there doing all of this to us, they didn’t know what they were doing. They had no idea.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

And the crazy thing, the craziest thing of all, so I worked at the Orthopaedic Center of the Rockies in Fort Collins for 17 years now. There’s a guy that works there that’s a maintenance guy. He’s worked there for 30 years. We’ve known each other for 17 years. And when the first thing came out about Fred, he had the article on his desk. And I thought, well, that’s weird. Why would this guy have this article on his desk?

Well, it turns out that he was the guy that found the apartment on fire that found Shelli that actually knocked on Fred Lamb’s door and caught Fred fully clothed at 5:00 AM. And Fred wouldn’t let him in his house. Fred told him, you can’t help her. I’m a police officer. You need to just leave everything alone.

Wait for the fire department to come. He basically was trying to stop him. But how crazy that — and I’ve always wondered, who was that man that helped us that day and tried to help Shelli? And I worked with him for 17 years and never even knew it. It’s just the strangest thing.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Are you OK if I record this phone call?

Yeah, yeah, I guess so.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Well, so me and a buddy got up early in the morning to go elk hunting. And he was running late. So I took off to run down to the fly store and drove right by the house and didn’t see anything, went into the fly store for just a couple of minutes and picked up some stuff for lunch and turned around and was on my way back when I went drove by the house. And flames were shooting out the door.

And so I swung around and pulled up in front and jumped out and went running up to the house. And right away, I saw Shelli in on the floor and yelled at her. And she didn’t move. So I tried to get in. And I just stuck my head in the door. And my hair started singeing just barely even getting my head in the door. So I just knew there was no way I was going to get all the way in.

So I went running to the neighbors and started pounding on the door. And a guy comes to the door. And I tell him that the apartment’s on fire. And I needed for him to get me some towels and wet them so I can try to get in and get the girl out. He nods. And he would not move. He wasn’t doing anything. And I think I actually just pushed him out of the way and ran in his house and grabbed some towels and came back.

And by the time I got back over to the apartment, my buddy had showed up. And when he showed up, he tried to do the same thing. And it was just way too hot for us to get in. But anyhow, the neighbor, which I’m sure you’ve heard who that is, right? Help me out here. I’m trying to — I forgot his name.

Fred Lamb.

Yeah, Fred Lamb — and he was just like — he was just out of it. And obviously, my adrenaline was pumping like crazy. And he wasn’t moving and helping me. And I was going crazy to try to get in there. And you could literally see the flames coming out of the door. The door was open. The window was busted out from the room. So flames were coming out.

And I don’t even remember him sticking his head out the door to look over, which is just — drives me crazy. And I remember standing at his door. And we could see where someone was hitting the door with a bloody hand. And then there was a big pool of blood. And then you could see where, obviously, she had hit the ground and then was drug back over to her apartment.

I mean, we were so blown away by the blood on the sidewalk that we thought it was just an innocent accident that her place got on fire and that she had gotten smoke inhalation and passed out or something. That’s kind of where we were at until we saw that blood. And then we were like, holy shit. What the hell is going on here?

[MUSIC PLAYING]

So the fire department shows up. And they took a statement and got our names and everything and said that they would be in touch. So we went hunting and then came back later. And they called us and asked us to come in. So we went in. And one of the first things I told him was the neighbor. I go, you got to check this guy out. He just seemed just guilty as hell. He knew something and would not help.

And the detective was like, you don’t worry about him. He’s a police officer. And you don’t need to worry about him. And when they told me that, I just came unglued. I was like, what the hell are you talking about? That makes it even worse that he never even stepped out of his apartment, that he couldn’t come over and help me, if you’re telling me he’s a cop.

So I was just livid. And they calmed me down. And so we talked about him, everything. And then that’s when they told me that she had already — she was already dead when I saw her, which me and my buddy both didn’t have a clue of that. We thought she might be still alive. And we couldn’t get in and get her. So it was just killing us all day long. But anyhow, that’s — I mean, I don’t know if you guys — that’s pretty much all I know. But —

Well, let me — I’m letting you just talk. Let me ask you a few follow-up questions. Do you remember talking about the guy? Do you remember having that conversation, like, what a strange encounter?

Yeah, I mean, that was the first place I was going with those — when the detectives were talking to me that night, so.

And did you hear anything from them after that?

I don’t think we did. I don’t remember them contacting us until, holy cow, what was it, 20 something years later when Terry opened it back up again.

What do you think about that?

Well, actually, now that you ask it, it seems awfully strange.

I just, yeah, I mean, I always thought that was always just so weird, although they came out in the papers. And I remember him saying they thought it was a truck driver and this and that.

And we always would talk and wonder who the heck it could have been and just figured it was like the police were saying, that they thought it was a passerby, someone traveling through. And they were gone. But I never did get any answers, so.

Yeah, and here we are.

Yeah, no, and that was just absolutely so maddening for Michelle and I, that Detective Terry told us a lot of this stuff that he had. And it’s like, holy cow, man, this almost seems like an open and closed case. And then the paper even put in his statement that, yeah, yeah, I did — do you remember how that he worded that? It was like, yeah, yeah, I did.

Saying that I did this wouldn’t, like, yeah, what was it exactly? Let me find it.

Yeah, yeah, I did this? It felt like that.

Yeah, something like that. Yeah, but his lawyer argued that he was browbeaten.

Said he was what?

Browbeaten because he — that he was an old man who was diabetic, who was hungry and didn’t understand, was talked to for seven hours. And so basically, all this stuff was taken out of context. Yeah, so —

I didn’t hear any of that.

Yeah, OK, this is what it says in the story from The Boomerang. “According to the documents during a police interview, Lamb initially denied the homicide allegation but later said, “Fred Lamb did it, dot, dot, dot, I’m not denying that I did it.” And, “bottom line is, I killed the girl,” the document states. Lamb consistently denied remembering the crime itself.”

Wow, yes, that’s why this came out just a while after we had met with Terry. And we were all like, yes, this is going to be over in no time. And then, nothing!

Yeah.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

So, first stop is vaccine and then Laramie, right?

Directly, just vaccine —

Directly —

What do you think, Lucy? What do you think? It’s one very concerned bulldog.

Yeah, it’s a very concerned bulldog. So I think I could just go like this.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

You could, literally, see the flames coming out of the door. And I don’t even remember him sticking his head out the door to look over.

Somebody mailed me a card with $100 bill in it and said, if you’re smart, you’d leave town. They think it was probably Fred that did that.

The detective who was in charge of it now is not somebody who was originally a police officer at the time. He’s not from Laramie.

What’s his name?

His name is Robert Terry.

Turn left onto Wyoming 130 East, Wyoming 230 East.

I wonder if one of these is like Foster’s, you know what I’m saying? Like, it was in this area.

— into Wyoming 130 East.

And that was her bedroom window. That would have been like where her bedroom window was right there, and Michelle’s was on the back side. And then, the other living room window was right here. So when —

I’ve got a “Laramie Daily Boomerang” microfiche from October 19 to December 13, 1985. That’s a good picture of her.

Yeah. I haven’t seen that one.

Yeah. She was very sporty.

Right.

But again, that’s not a jump. That’s it.

That’s it. Five paragraphs.

Hi.

I don’t want to interrupt you if you’re in the middle of numbering —

How can we help you?

So if I’m looking for court records, is this where I come?

Well, if it’s for a felony, a probate —

The mailbox is full and cannot accept any messages at this time.

Hi, this is Stephanie. Please leave your message. Thank you.

Hi, Stephanie. My name is Kim Barker, and I’m actually a reporter with “The New York Times.” I’m calling you on Thursday afternoon at about 12:30 —

Laramie Police Department, Robert Terry.

Is this Robert Terry?

Yes, it is.

Hi, I don’t know if I’d call you “Assistant Police Chief” or “Mr.” Which do you prefer?

It doesn’t matter.

OK. Well, my name is Kim Barker, and I’m actually a reporter with “The New York Times.” And I’m in Laramie right now, and I’d love to be able to talk to you about a case I know that you’ve worked on pretty hard over the last decade or so. Involving Shelli Wiley.

Right.

I’m actually in Laramie. I’m from Laramie. I went to high school here. I was actually in my sophomore year, in 1985, she was killed. And so I’ve just, like, always found it — it was a — I mean, you weren’t here, but it was a horrific time in Laramie. And I’ve always just been curious what’s happened with the case. And so is there any way we could meet in person and just sort of talk about what we’re doing?

I don’t — I don’t mind meeting with you in person, but I can’t really speak a lot about the case, because it’s still open.

Uh-huh.

I can sure discuss some of the things that are already divulged.

Yeah. That’d be great. That’d be perfect.

Maybe just get to know each other, but I mean, I can’t speak about some of the things we’re doing.

And — yeah, I know you can’t talk about things that are going on behind the scenes. But like, just about the stuff that’s been in the public — and I know — I mean, I know you’ve been very personally invested in the case. And so I mean, according to the family, you’re like the person that they’ve come to depend on.

So to talk a little bit about that, because that doesn’t really have anything to do with anything ongoing. Because it’s nice to have, like — considering who was arrested, to have a positive police officer involved, if that makes any sense.

Yeah, sure it does.

OK.

You want to come to my office, or —

Yeah, I’d love to come to your office. When would work for you?

How about now.

We can move these papers out of the way. Everything just piles up.

Here we go.

So if you could start by introducing yourself.

Sure. My name is Robert G. Terry, and I’m the Assistant Chief for the Laramie Police Department in Laramie, Wyoming.

So talk about this case. How did you come to this case?

So this case is probably the most prolific case in Laramie, and it never was solved. And Laramie has a few cold cases that we’ve worked on over the years, but this is one that a lot of officers had looked at and done some work on.

It’s, by far, the most worked case in the history of the PD, as far as hours and manpower. And this was one I really wanted to take a peek at, and so we pulled all the case files out and went through what we had in evidence, which —

So when they bring you out the reports, and you’re starting to dig into this, I mean, are we talking this much? Like, a foot and a half, 2 feet? How much are you looking at? I know a lot of it was on microfiche, so maybe it’s just like a few microfiche cards.

So kind of how it worked is, people before me had printed them all off. And print ‘em off, three-hole punch ‘em, and put them in notebooks. So it started off with two large — well, they’re right there. Actually, those blue ones that say 1 and 2, they’re just like that.

Whoa, you’ve got them right here.

Yeah. I’ve lived with these for 11 years.

The two —

Just the two blue ones were what is — were what were put together kind of prior to me. And that included all of the written police reports to that point.

And you keep them here.

I keep them with me. Yeah.

So back in the beginning, they didn’t talk a lot about the blood, just that there was a lot of blood. And I know from — the one piece of paper I was able to get was —

The affidavit?

Yeah, yeah, the search warrant and your affidavit. But it talks about the blood going down these two doors. And was there a handprint, or was there blood on that door that was two doors down from Shelli Wiley?

So the blood evidence between the apartment complexes is primarily between apartment 3 and 1, hers being 1, the apartment where Fred Lamb was staying in — number 3. So there was blood evidence on number 3, and then on the sidewalk, leading to and into number one.

So we know our crime scene — at least that portion of it is in there, from there to there. And lots of it. There’s a lot of story there.

So what ties the DNA of Fred Lamb to Shelli Wiley?

I can’t tell you all that. But obviously, we have blood evidence of Fred in that crime scene. So that’s really all I can tell you, which says a lot, really. I mean, that’s almost too much, but that’s really it. We know that he was there. I mean, we saw him there that morning.

It’s not — like, the whole point of this is — like, this homicide is not very difficult. It’s just not. I would hope, knock on wood, this doesn’t happen, but if it happened today — I’ve always said this — I believe that the outcome would be much different, just because of the way that we’re trained and how we do things.

But it wasn’t — it’s not complicated. When I’ve talked to some of the guys — and some of them aren’t alive anymore that were there — everybody knew — I mean, he worked with them. Fred worked with everybody at that scene.

And not only that, but was in the guard. And I mean, that’s like a friend. So you’re showing up, and your friend’s there, and you’re kind of like, well, that doesn’t make much sense. But yeah, surely, people that I work with wouldn’t be responsible for something like this.

So the dynamics and the culture and the friendships and everything just — it made things more difficult, and it had to have been extremely hard for the officers, because they were uncomfortable. And they would never have thought that somebody that they knew and worked with, especially as a police officer, would be involved. But —

So there’s some match that comes back that you can’t discuss, but it implicates Fred with DNA evidence. What happens after that?

So when you go back and listen to his interview, he tells them about said piece of evidence, and it’s like, holy fuck. Like, excuse my language for whoever is listening to this, but like, seriously, he told him about it in 1985.

It’s just, it just goes back to that dynamic of the relationships. Like, oh, OK, Fred, thank you. We’ll get a hold of you later. I mean, just didn’t do anything with it.

What was he like? You might find my blood there, because I was putting a screen back in, or something like that?

Yeah, always has a reason for anything. He knows. He knows what they’re going to ask, and he just — he told them what he wanted them to know, and just made ‘em super uncomfortable, and that’s how it ended. Just, that’s it. OK.

Thanks, Fred. See you later, buddy. Let me know when you get back. We’ll go have a beer, kind of thing, you know? It’s just like me talking to one of my friends, and there’s no — that’s why we’re here now, almost 40 years later. So.

Can you talk about where the case stands now, just as much as you can say?

Yeah, I mean, the case is still active. I need a new prosecutor. I’m still working with Peggy’s office to get that accomplished, and then move forward with our plan. We want to take this to trial. We just got to have a prosecutor assigned and somebody that wants to do it. And COVID needs to let up on our restrictions for courtroom.

The jurors need to see this, and they have to see it. The family has to be there. Maybe not all of her family, but a lot of them want to know. They deserve that, and the time is running out. I mean, that’s just the sad part of it.

You know, people are getting old, and people are passing away. And all the cops are passing away, the families are passing away, and eventually, Fred’s going to pass away. And that’s the biggest worry of the whole thing — is like, are we going to miss our opportunity to hold him responsible? We know who did this. We just have to prove it.

When Judge Sanford became a judge, I got all drunk, and I started giving Terry and all the cops a bunch of shit. And there was some of this going on. And I was telling him what a bunch of putzes they were for having the wrong guy.

Can I ask you just to identify, say what your full name is and what you do for a living?

Vaughn Howard Neubauer. I’m a criminal defense attorney.

So when you go to law school, do you want to do defense law?

I wanted to be a public defender. I’ve always hated the death penalty. I’ve never liked the cops. I hate authority. Yeah, I wanted to be a public defender, and I would — if I wouldn’t have gotten fired, I’d still be one, but there you have it. After my second daughter died, I had a very bad year. I got arrested four times in one year, and they let me go.

Oh, my god. OK, number one, your second daughter died?

Yeah, I got — they were both stillborn. But yeah. But we got two boys.

That’s good. But that had to be a really — and so you were working as a —

I had a stressful time. [LAUGHS]

So you’re a public defender. Your second daughter dies. You mess up a few times. And they fire you, and then you go and you hang your own shingle out. Is that about it?

That’s about the way it worked. Yeah.

OK. And you had any of your big cases before then?

Oh, yeah. All the death penalty stuff was as a public defender. I also did the Bush case, which was a 20-year-old cold homicide.

Cold cases don’t happen all that often. I’ve done — for Wyoming, I’ve done a significant number of cold homicide cases, though.

How many would you say you’ve done?

Eton, Bush, Bean, Lamb — four.

Yeah. Yeah, that’s a lot —

For Wyoming, it is. Yeah.

Yeah. So talk about how you got involved with the Lamb case and how you first heard about it.

They called me. I don’t know how they got my name. And they hired me. Yeah.

So then what happens?

Boy, we were ready to go. And they dismiss, claiming that they had to get other evidence tested. Now, this was a 20-some-year cold case, and the way these work is every time somebody gets promoted to detective, they’re handed all the cold cases. So every new detective since 19 — well, when was it, 1988 or —

‘85.

—‘85 — has had this case. Every piece of physical evidence has been tested. There was nothing left to retest. And they dismiss, saying they needed to get evidence tested some more, which was not even true. There’s nothing left to retest.

They’re out of blood.

They still have the swabs from the door where Freddy was.

And just because some of Fred’s blood was on a door, two doors down — I always fail to see the significance of that.

They had nothing inside the apartment.

I mean, her body — and there was enough left to identify her. She wasn’t completely consumed by the fire, and the fire really only did the living room. Lots of the bedroom, the kitchen — lots of stuff in that survived.

And they collected, you know, bed sheets. I can’t remember what all else, but there is nothing to connect Fred Lamb with the inside of that apartment. They found a bloody matchbook cover with a fingerprint on it.

What was it? Like a palm print or something?

Yeah, kind of like that. I don’t know if any of this is in my electronic files or not. If — now, Fred said I could talk to you. So if it’s not in here — I mean, because there is so much. I don’t know if we put it in the electronic files or not. It’s in storage, either over at 6th Street or in our storage locker. I can —

That’d be great.

I can go find it.

Yeah.

But again, it’s a cold case. I mean, the DVDs are that high. There’s a lot of stuff.

Happy to look through that with you, if you’re amenable to that.

Sure.

Boy, OK, so we do have it.

Come on.

See, it’s thinking.

Yeah. It got mad at me.

You made it do a lot at the same time, to be fair.

Yeah.

But yeah, let’s go back to talking, and then we can look at some stuff. So you get involved. You get all this discovery. You start going through it.

And you’re working with somebody who’s — it’s been a very long time. I don’t know — is he — is his mind all there? Does he remember that night?

Yeah, you know, Fred’s a —

he’s a simple man. But no, his memory is good. I mean, he remembers going to sleep. He remember some kind of commotion. He looked out the window, and then there’s people banging on his door saying there’s a fire.

That’s what Fred remembers. And so he’s a guy — he really thought that the police were coming to scratch his brain to see if he could have any insights, you know. Seven hours, he didn’t see it coming.

And they confronted him with all these lies about what the physical evidence was. And after seven hours, the most Terry could get Fred Lamb to admit — he got him to admit that, yes, I agree that the great weight of the evidence points towards me. He never had a speeding ticket. The one and only crime he’s ever been charged with is first-degree murder.

I’m assuming that would have been your defense, had you gone to trial.

It would have been both a negative defense — Fred didn’t do it — and we had an alternate suspect that we thought we could have put pretty big meat on. Now, I don’t know if the “Boomerang” ever had this before the fire department got called.

Some Hispanic male came in and bought gas. I think this is at the fly store. They did a composite sketch of him, and it sure looks like Larry Montez’s junior high school yearbook photo to me. I know Larry did it. He did it.

I mean, it was pervy as hell. That night, Larry — he drove — he had a crush on some teenage girl up in Rock River. He drove up there in the middle of the night, went into her house — I don’t think he had to break in. They probably had the door open — but sat there and watched her sleep for an hour. And he left Rock River in plenty of time to get back down here and do this. Yeah.

And Larry Montez’s name — it’s never been made public.

No, they dragged Fred through the dirt. And yeah. I mean, he went to prison for being a child molester, you know. But —

Larry did.

Larry did, yeah. He died in prison.

Right. Right. So what is your impression of how that scene was handled from the very beginning, and the evidence collection, and what the police did?

You know, I’m not a cop, but I do know they like to keep a track of their witnesses in the early stages of an investigation. They had a very racist response. They’d gotten information that Shelli Wiley had had an African-American boyfriend, and maybe she had a preference for African-American males. And oh my god, did they turn this town upside down looking for African-American males.

In talking to her family, they just — they also talk about all the rumors that were being spread about Shelli at that point, you know — blaming her, you know.

She had it coming. She was flirting with guys at the truck stop. She was going out with African-Americans. She had to be a slut because of that. You know? I mean, no morals whatsoever. Didn’t she think something like this was going to happen to her? Yeah, there was lots of that. There was — yeah.

Do you think they’re, at all, investigating anything now?

They did a search warrant on Fred less than a year ago. Me and Fred had to go get a whole other set of complete handprints taken.

And they’re not going to show anything, because Fred was asleep. I mean, I don’t know all the killers, but I’ve met a lot of killers. If Fred Lamb’s a killer, I’ll kiss your ass on a main street.

Did you — did they give you any of the old audio of the initial investigation, like the interviews?

Let’s see.

These are from 2009. Here’s a — that’s from 11.

Here’s one from 1985. Three disks. It’s on video even.

Do you have this that connects to there? So we can just bring over a hard drive. And that works, right?

Looks like they’re all there. You got some nighttime reading.